Chat Session with Kevin Calhoun
Feb. 5, 1998
This is a log of an online chat
conference with Kevin Calhoun, the long-time head of Apple's HyperCard
team. This chat was held on February 5, 1998 at America Online's HyperCard
Forum.
The moderator was Jacqueline Landman Gay of
HyperActive Software, who is the leader of AOL's HyperCard Forum. I'm a staff
member in the forum also and would like to invite you to participate in
future chat sessions. Reading a chat log can be informative, but it's even
better to actually participate in the discussions. Please see my Links
page for more info about AOL's HyperCard Forum.
I've edited the text for continuity and to
delete off-topic coments, the comments of the moderator calling on people,
etc.
+ + +
AFA Jacque (Jacqueline Gay, moderator): I'd like to introduce Kevin Calhoun, our speaker tonight. Kevin was for a long time the head of the HyperCard team and still is, in a way, though he now heads the QT VR team too. (Did I get it right, Kevin?) Kevin is here tonight to talk about the newest release of HyperCard...version 2.4, as well as possibly talk about the future direction of HyperCard in general...We will be observing protocol tonight, so I'll ask you all to follow the instructions that Jeff has sent to you when you arrived. With that, Kevin, if you are ready, take it away. :)
JKCalhoun (Kevin
Calhoun): Thanks, Jacque. For those of you I haven't met before,
either online or in person, I'll go back a few years to start out with.
In 1987 I was a schoolteacher in Honolulu, with a Mac SE and a couple of
half-baked ideas of how I could use it in my classroom. I got a very late
beta copy of HyperCard 1.0 from a friend of mine who was developing software
for Dartmouth College, and that, as they say, was that. My first stack
was called "Pi series", and it demonstrated how the partial sums
of a series converge to pi.
After that, I got a job supporting HyperCard-based
courseware development at Dartmouth, where some colleagues and I wrote
the Dartmouth XCMDs, and then I moved to California to join the HyperCard
team. I was the lead engineer on HyperCard 2.0, and then I became the engineering
manager for HyperCard 2.1. When HyperCard went to Claris I stayed at Apple
and managed AppleScript for a time, but I wasn't really happy. I did some
work to incorporate AppleScript support into HyperCard, and much to my
surprise, when HyperCard came back from Claris in early 1993, that work
became the foundation for 2.2. In 1995 I moved to the QuickTime engineering
group, and shortly after that, HyperCard moved there also.
As you know, we're currently working on HyperCard
2.4, which mainly supports QuickTime 3.0, but also delivers some other
interesting features and enhancements beyond that. My job at present is
to manage the QuickTime Interactivity projects, which include QTVR, HyperCard,
and some other stuff we won't get into tonight. Back to HyperCard 2.4 --
it started when we realized that HyperCard could be very valuable in testing
QuickTime 3.0. As you know, QuickTime has become so vast that no one seems
to have a complete feature list. Imagine testing that beast! HyperCard,
with HyperTalk's expressive power, seemed ideal as a test bed. After all,
we use HyperCard to test itself. So we enhanced the Movie XCMD to support
all of the file types that QuickTime can open, including video, audio,
still images, QTVR, etc. And added features to the Movie XCMD to allow
us to manipulate all that stuff.
Steve Bannerman, who's now our senior product
marketing manager, had a great idea: let's bring all this stuff to GM quality
and ship it as an interim release while we all await the much closer integration
of HyperCard and QuickTime yet to come. So we did. Four weeks ago, we announced
the availability of the first public beta seed of any HyperCard release
ever, and we've had lots of great feedback from users all over the world.
We're still in the process of putting the
final touches on QuickTime 3.0 and HyperCard 2.4, and Jacque and I thought
it would be a good time for an AOL chat in the MHC forum. So how's that
for long-winded typing?
AFA Jacque: That's great typing. :) We'll start Q & A now.
CoIin: Do you have any figures on the number of downloads for HC2.4 compared to QT3.0 betas?
JKCalhoun: The number of HyperCard downloads is smaller than QT3, but it's still an impressive number... in the thousands. Given the size of the download and the load on Apple's ftp servers, that number is a tribute to the HyperCard faithful!
RoyalSWDG: Can you edit QT from the Movie XCMD?
JKCalhoun: No. The Movie XCMD is for controlling movies at runtime.
RMacLemale: Will there be a HyperCard 2.5? :)
JKCalhoun: No plans for a 2.5 at present. (There was, of course, a HyperCard 2.5 project at Claris that never shipped.)
Kuta: can I put QTVR clips in an HC 2.3 stack? if so how? I have an application where I want to do a VR walkthrough opening a QTVR frame in a stack and passing mouse clicks through etc
JKCalhoun: You can certainly open QTVR movies from HyperCard and display them as part of your stacks. There are two ways to do this: use the Movie task, or use the QuickTime Tools stack as a starter. The QT features of HyperCard still require some scripting, but either the Movie task or the QT Tools stack can automatically generate the scripts you need. Of course, if you want finer control, you can write the scripts yourself.
Kuta: what is the movie task?
JKCalhoun: The Movie task is one of HyperCard's Button Tasks -- they're like the "Link To" feature for stuff other than simple navigation.
KSnyder167: will hypercard become better then supercard (color integration,movie editing) and will the price stay the same?
JKCalhoun: Regarding HyperCard and SuperCard -- fully integrated color and movie editing aren't features of HyperCard 2.4, so for those things HyperCard isn't better than other applicationst that have them. I'd very much like to release a version of HyperCard with fully integrated color ASAP.
KSnyder167: I meant in the future.
JKCalhoun: Don't know what else to say about that.
KSnyder167: How about the price
JKCalhoun: Regarding price -- the price of 2.4 will remain the same: $99. It will be a free upgrade for users of 2.3 and 2.3.5. done
ScreenZero: What non-QT enhancements are in 2.4?
JKCalhoun: The limit on the number of text files you can open with the 'open file' command has been removed. You can open files until the Macintosh File Manager runs out of entries. That will take you awhile. We've added an 'open URL' command that works with Internet Config, so it will be easier for you to embed links to web-based material in your stacks. Also, we've been looking closely at problem reports that have been posted to comp.sys.mac.hypercard and to this forum on AOL, and we've taken care of quite of few of them. If the winds here in California don't top 100 mph tonight and blow my PowerBook out to sea, I want to look at that age-old bug in the HyperCard indenter that formats certain combination of 'if-then-else' wrong.
AFA Jacque: Hooray! :)
JKCalhoun: Jacque, am I forgetting any other features?
AFA Jacque: I think that's most of them.
JKCalhoun: (Actually, the winds during bad storms blow the other way here. I guess I'm still an Easterner when it comes to base apprehension.)
AFC Cat: Kevin, you had a great demo stack for 2.4 at MacWorld. Any chance you'd post the stack or scripts for us somewhere?
JKCalhoun: Cat, which stack was that?
AFC Cat: The stack that had the mars rover thing : )
JKCalhoun: Ah. We could post the stack, but not the content. Maybe we should do it with a VR movie for which we have the necesary rights.
AFC Cat: That would be great!
JKCalhoun: For anyone who couldn't come to MacWorld SF, the stack Cat mentioned is a simple thing -- a QTVR movie from the Mars Pathfinder mission that can be controlled by a "thumbnail" view of the full 360 degree panorama. Click on the thumbnail, and the QTVR movie goes right to the point you clicked. You can even drag around on the thumbnail to manipulate the VR scene. All of this requires just a couple of lines of HyperTalk.
AFA Jacque: And I heard you wrote it the night before MacWorld. :)
JKCalhoun: Well, Jacque, not really. I've written that stack three times now, the first time using technologies that aren't shipping this month, the second time with an earlier version of the Movie XCMD that was harder to use, and the third time for MacWorld.
AFA Jacque: Must be the mythology that surrounds you, leading to urban myth.
KSnyder167: this vr controll feature would come handy in making games(first person 3-d)
CoIin: just a comment, it's about time QTVR was spherical.
JKCalhoun: You mean to want to look up and down, too?
CoIin: like you can in the varius QTVR lookalikes.
JKCalhoun: Very shortly. Our announcements state, "early in 1998".
SKostka: When will commercial versions of HC 2.4 and QT 3.0 be out?
JKCalhoun: Got to turn those demos into real products.
DASWorks1: Using the Movie XCMD, is it possible to play a movie from the clipboard?
JKCalhoun: No. I don't think this has come up before. David, can you send me e-mail and describe what you want to do?
DASWorks1: Would you consider this modification?
CoIin: The clipboard idea could be useful, and would only have to work like it does with the Picture command.
JKCalhoun: David: would we consider it? Yes.
RoyalSWDG: will QT 4 support my code-stuff if I convert it over? just the stuff I have the source to, like string-parsing stuff
JKCalhoun: I need to find out just what your code depends upon. Then we can figure out just how to make it work in future runtimes.
RoyalSWDG: I have a game that I want color in, where you type MUD-type commands that are sent to X's for speediness generally.
JKCalhoun: I don't think we can figure this one out during the chat. Let's confer via e-mail.
Monkey 109: Will HyperCard v2.4 and following versions have eaiser to use color tools?
JKCalhoun: HyperCard 2.4 inherits its Color Tools from HyperCard 2.3.5. I don't want to do any other releases of HyperCard without better color.
PaisanoMan: Does that mean that HC 2.4 will require the 2.3.5. Color Tools? And maybe have just an upgrade?
AFA Jacque: Kevin, I imagine there will have to be a whole new set of commands for color manipulation.
JKCalhoun: Jacque: yup, got to be able to talk about that color stuff. HC 2.4 will be a free upgrade to all users of 2.3 and 2.3.5 -- there will be an online updater, similar to what's online now for 2.3.5. We're not updating the Color Tools stack, so you won't have to download it again. If that's what you're asking. The use of the Color Tools remains, of course, optional.
Kuta: Will HC 2.4 work on the old b/w compacts? (We use HC on old SEs on an assembly line at work)
JKCalhoun: HC 2.4 will run on all machines that run previous 2.x releases. All the way back to the Mac Plus. System 6.0.5. 1 megabyte. single finder. Just to clarify --HyperCard will run on all of those older machines and system versions, but QuickTime's requirements are different. So some of the new features require newer system software/processors/etc.
RoyalSWDG: = Windows 95!
JKCalhoun: If that's your thing. :)
AFA Jacque: I don't even know where we'd find single Finder any more. :)
Kuta: at Techkor Instrumentation, Inc.
JKCalhoun: How many Finders would a single Finder find if a Single Finder could... ah, skip it.
PaisanoMan: I was just wondering why I get poor movie playback with QT 3.0 and HC 2.4?
JKCalhoun: I don't know. If a processor-intensive script is running while you're playing movies, you might have to send "idle" commands to your movie windows.
PaisanoMan: I was playing the movies straight from the QuickTime tools stack
JKCalhoun: PaisanoMan: please e-mail me with details. Machine, system version, etc. We'll follow up.
Jp11: Will we have to wait for QT 4.0 to see beta HC 3.0? And, around when will we see a beta of HC 3.0? GA
JKCalhoun: Jp11: we haven't announced any dates for those things yet.
PaisanoMan: What would the requirements become with the Color Tools?
JKCalhoun: The Color Tools require 32-bit QuickDraw -- and if you never heard of 32-bit QuickDraw before, then don't worry. It's build into System 7.0 and later. And of course a 68020 processor or better. (None of the 68000 machines are color-capable.)
PaisanoMan: So, it's System 6 with the 32-QD extension, or System 7?
JKCalhoun: "built into", of course
PaisanoMan: Do the requirements of RAM change at all?
JKCalhoun: Right, PaisanoMan. The HyperCard installer will install the 32-bit QuickDraw extension if it's not there on your color-capable System 6 machine. But, hey, doesn't anyone around here run System 8.1?
PaisanoMan: I do
JKCalhoun: PaisanoMan: yes, color requires more RAM. 2 MB to display, 5 to edit.
KSnyder167: Will it be possible to use quicktime movies as Hypercard or desktop backgrounds ?
JKCalhoun: Not with HyperCard 2.4, no.
KSnyder167: I mean in future qt versions.
JKCalhoun: But it's a very good idea. Please e-mail me with details of what you want to do.
Stolkachev: QT and color - fine! But what about connection to WWW and ODBC and Internet? Only open URL?
JKCalhoun: Yes, HyperCard 2.4 supports opening URLs with your designated URL helper apps, working, of course, with Internet Config. Regarding other types of connectivity -- not in 2.4.
DASWorks1: Do any of the changes with Claris effect HyperCard? If so, what are they?
JKCalhoun: HyperCard is one of the "Apple-labeled" software products, just like System Software. Apple had been doing all of its software distribution through Claris, HyperCard included, and now Apple will be doing its own software distribution. I'm no authority on how Apple's software distribution will be changing, however. But HyperCard was and is an Apple-labeled product. I'm still waiting for more information on how Apple-labeled products will be handled.
AFC Cat: I am wondering about the drawing tools in HC 3.0. In Director, we have to use objects to draw and the existing HC drawing tools are a lot easier to manipulate. A combo would be great.
JKCalhoun: Let's figure out what
the best combination would be. One of my engineers would very much like
to correspond with you about this.
A word about HyperCard and Director: or HyperCard
and SuperCard for that matter. With HyperCard, we're making an effort to
make really great Apple technologies accessible to lots of people. What
would be ideal is to show how to make use of all the great QuickTime stuff
-- not to be The Way to make use of it, but a very accessible way. Other
tools, tools that will certainly be better for specific purposes than HyperCard
will be, will also be able to make use of the same base technologies. So
when we talk about looking at this feature in SuperCard or that feature
in Director, I'm thinking: "Can we make stuff like this easier to
support across a class of tools? Is there something we can do at a lower
level to make this better/easier/more standard? And how can we show the
value of that lower level stuff in a tool like HyperCard?" Ideally,
the stuff we build into QuickTime will be roundly exploited by Director
et al.
AFA Jacque: Kevin, I think people forget, as I did, that QT's API will be open to anyone and that it will be very easy for third parties to add capabilities that will work in HC or any QT app. You mentioned this to me about printing capabilities; it could be expanded to other areas too, yes?
JKCalhoun: Yes, that's the deal. Today's QuickTime is very modular -- so was yesterday's, as a matter of fact. We're seeing some of the fruits of good architecture with the new codecs from other great companies that Apple is working with -- Sorenson for one. We'll continue with the same philosophy -- make room for great stuff we didn't put in.
Kuske: Thanks. Kevin, thank you for geeking out with us. My question: Can you say now if and how the authoring environment in 3.0 will be different?
JKCalhoun: Can't say. I can say whether I can say: I can't. Sorry, shouldn't be messing.
PaisanoMan: Will HyperCard ever go cross-platform? I know there are alternative prducts similar to HyperCard that will do that, but they aren't as graceful
JKCalhoun: Probably we should establish some ground rules for discussion of future stuff -- I'm really not able to make any statements. But I'm really eager to find out what people want. For a long time, we've known that the top requirements for future versions of HyperCard are: integrated color, support of multiple platforms, better standards for extensibility. And I'm very very interested in meeting those requirements.
RoyalSWDG: I never get a straight answer about Rhapsody.... will the QTML tools be cross-platform there too?
JKCalhoun: Sorry, the Rhapsody folks will have to answer that one.
JamesDP35: What's the relationship of HC to things like SK8? Could HC and QTi support that kind of "build-your-own-objects" setup? In the future, I mean, potentially..
JKCalhoun: One of the engineers who worked on the later versions of SK8 moved over to the QuickTime team, and he's brought his experience and ideas with him. We're looking at SK8 as a source of ideas for interface and features.
RMacLemale: Is there any source I could find info on...how to remove stuff from HyperCard stand alone apps... that my apps don't need, using resedit?
JKCalhoun: I think there's a good deal of practical knowledge about that sort of thing here in this forum. However, Apple doesn't support any details about this at all.
AFA Jacque: Ask in our message boards, we can help you with that.
Jp11: Any info on the direction of the HC player and standalone maker? Reduction in size...?
JKCalhoun: Smaller would be better, I'm sure. I've got to go --the next El Nino storm is due later tonight, and we'll be packing up to flee the carnage. A branch that missed our roof by about twelve inches, punched a hole in the deck, and knocked the railing off the side of the deck. Hoo boy.
AFA Jacque: I had no idea! That makes us doubly appreciative of your presence tonight, Kevin.
JKCalhoun: So we're looking to get out of the winds before too long.
DASWorks1: Thanks Kevin...
JKCalhoun: I'm glad the worst of it has held off.
AFA Jacque: We want to thank you for coming, Kevin, it has been an excellent chat.
JKCalhoun: You're very welcome.
Jp11: Ditto!!!
Stolkachev: Thanks Kevin! Warm weather from Russia!
AFC JamesS: Thanks Kevin
RoyalSWDG: Thanks a bunch
Kuske: Thank you.
AFC Cat: <-- thanks from me too
JKCalhoun: Good night to everyone, except to Stolkachev who needs a good morning!
AFC HyperJ: << Applause>>
AFA Jacque: Stolkachev must have gotten up early for this one. :) Thanks again, Kevin.
JKCalhoun: See you next time. Thanks for coming.